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Author Topic: Denon 103 and conical styli  (Read 5654 times)
analogfuture
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« on: March 31, 2009, 08:56:07 AM »

Hello,

 I've had a little time for listening and further experiments with the Lenco/Ladegaard rig the past couple of weeks. Out of curiosity I had to try the old Audio-Technica AT-32 MC cart that I found at work a while back. It turned out to function very well, and sounded great too. Super nice on vocals. Tried it first on the SME 3012R/Garrard 401, next on the Lenco/Ladegaard, both with good results. But it has a very short (exposed part anway) cantilever and the cartridge body rides extremely low, so some real trouble with warped records, not easily helped without upsetting the VTA. At some point during adjustments/setup lately my Denon DL-103R (bought about 10 years ago) must have suffered some damage, as it now has some ugly distortion on vocals and loud passages, so I have had to retire it from further service for now. (Need better microscope to see whether the stylus might be damaged.)

 Back in the 1990s I read with great interest a couple of articles by Reto Luigi Andreoli, in "HiFi Scene Schweiz" ("The Truth about Cartridge Sound" etc.), where, after a thorough analysis of the geometry/mechanics involved, a major conclusion is that a spherical stylus point of appropriate radius should result in lower distortion - and that in his opinion most of the fancy "audiophile" (VdH etc.) stylus profiles appear to sound more detailed and with better HF extension BECAUSE OF added non-linear distortion in the upper octaves. (Any non-spherical stylus will fail to track the groove at a constant depth due to groove amplitude and cantilever deflection, thus introduce non-recorded vertical distortion components to the signal - in proportion to lateral cantilever deflections. Quite obvious once one gets the whole picture.) The well known "pinch distortion" is part of the same issue, and opinions differ as to which practical approach results in the most "correct" reproduction - which may be a matter of choice between different evils. Be that as it may, Reto builds cartridges knowledgeably, and continues to be one of the most influential, inspirational audio personalities I have known, and I like his style, philosophies and no-nonsense approaches. So, on his recommendation, finally, I have purchased a DL-103 in the original version, with the spherical stylus. It arrived yesterday, and I got a chance to give it a listen. "Sonic memory" is not much to go by IMO, and I have never been crazy about "A/B testing", plus my DL-103R is no longer performing as it should, so it would not have been an option. And my new DL-103 could use some break-in, plus probably sounds better at its optimum temperature etc. So, first impressions are what they are... (...but very good!) after a play-through of one of my all time favorite records, the B side (AKA "The Ninth Wave") from "Hounds of Love" by ever lovely Kate Bush. Aah...

 Oh, and have found a nice thick Thorens platter mat whick is very likeable...

Thomas


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« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2009, 09:57:16 AM »

Good to hear that you had some time for playing with the carts and comparing the sounds. Your posting on the stylus profile and cantilever combination is very interesting - particulalry as I have recieved a number of cartridges back from Expert Stylus which you may wish to read about here

http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=61.0

While I cannot vouch for distortion, but certainly an improved cantilever and stylus profile has taken me to another level of analogue reproduction which has blown me away.

The Denon 103 / 103R are solid performers and if you dare to tweak them then it will open up a new world to you.
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analogfuture
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« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2009, 08:03:07 AM »

Good to hear that you had some time for playing with the carts and comparing the sounds. Your posting on the stylus profile and cantilever combination is very interesting - particulalry as I have recieved a number of cartridges back from Expert Stylus which you may wish to read about here

http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=61.0

While I cannot vouch for distortion, but certainly an improved cantilever and stylus profile has taken me to another level of analogue reproduction which has blown me away.

The Denon 103 / 103R are solid performers and if you dare to tweak them then it will open up a new world to you.


 Hi David,

 I've read the thread on the 103 body mods a while back. Always interesting with these part mechanical analog components, how almost any change of almost any kind may have some impact on the sound. I have not seen any detailed description of 103 disassembly/reassembly, but it seems to be a fairly simple matter to replace the body/housing - seeing that so many of you guys have successfully done it. So maybe...I just have so many projects already, so it would have to be if you or someone else comes up with another batch of something "ready made" that I could buy & try...

 The articles I refered to by R.L. Andreoli are well worth reading, however I don't think they have been translated into English. Back when they were written they stirred up some controversy, when he also published a whole lot of microscope photos of commercial "high end" cantilever/styli (on some quite expensive MC carts) showing cement blobs, misaligned styli and other unpleasant things bad for the publicity of certain famous manufacturers (Denon NOT included, btw!) Some of these sloppy stylus mountings may have been cases of "refurbished" trade-in cartridges, who knows. I thought the lesson to be learned is that a) microscopes are extremely useful and revealing and b) some times audio components which are extremely expensive may not be made to the level of perfection one is made to expect from advertising etc.

Thomas
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wesley
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« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2009, 01:30:58 AM »

 grin  thomas, since your 103r is down, it might be an excellent opportunity to have it reworked by expert stylus.  it seems that david is very happy with the ruby cantilever and paratrace.  i will most definitely go the same route when my 103r needs work.  it was mentioned that the rework might change the sound to a more vivid presentation.  this can ALWAYS be RETUNED back to a more relaxed sound.  the ruby probably created a much more stiffer cantilever, so you just counter the effect with a more absorbing body, which will be with wood, maybe even softer wood wink.

it's really a coincidence, but i am also going to be using a 103 in my new ebony arm, which i am working on right now.  i only have 2 pcs. of 103r, so i have no choice but to use the extra 103 ( i have 2 by the way).  the 103 is already a very good cartridge, but the 103r has a bit of an edge on refinement.  sometimes i think the highs on the r are a bit hyped up, so perhaps the r is not for everyone.  however i still prefer the r, but there are some recordings like the mercury's that are already vivid enough.  maybe one of these days i will have the 103 reworked (ruby and paratrace) by expert stylus and see what happens.

here is an interesting article as well.  it's really difficult to say which shape of stylus is better.  my guess is that the spherical is less prone to perfect set-up, and a contact line is great too, but has to have a really super dialled in set-up.  anyway, with anything in hi-fi, it all depends on how fussy you are and what satisfies you.  when going a little overboard about technical aspects, you forgot about music enjoyment.

http://www.dagogo.com/DenonDL-103.html

up an coming for me  azn  i bought a new house and i will finally have a dedicated music room at home.  the room is small, but it's going to get an ALL OUT CRAZY treatment.  i will tune the entire room with wood and various oddities that will make myself looking even crazier.  up and coming will be a new tuned seduction phono amp and lenco l78 with ptp2 (the ptp2 i bought from david) on a new ebony wand and new plinth.  now i just have to find the time to build it.  just the chore of moving is going  to take a while, and once settled in, then the hi-fi will be slowly assembled and the room tuned laugh.

« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 01:32:32 AM by wesley » Logged

regards,

wesley

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« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2009, 05:41:57 AM »

but the 103r has a bit of an edge on refinement.  sometimes i think the highs on the r are a bit hyped up, so perhaps the r is not for everyone. 


up an coming for me  azn  i bought a new house and i will finally have a dedicated music room at home.  the room is small, but it's going to get an ALL OUT CRAZY treatment.  i will tune the entire room with wood and various oddities that will make myself looking even crazier.  up and coming will be a new tuned seduction phono amp and lenco l78 with ptp2 (the ptp2 i bought from david) on a new ebony wand and new plinth.  now i just have to find the time to build it.  just the chore of moving is going  to take a while, and once settled in, then the hi-fi will be slowly assembled and the room tuned laugh.

I agree, I think the 103R is a bit zippy in the highs, a little sucked out in the mids.  But over all a
reasonable presentation.

Congratulations on the news of the new house.  Just imagine what you could do with a smaller dedicated room... You won't be able to walk without poking out an eye on a piece of wood. grin
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analogfuture
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« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2009, 12:01:44 AM »

 Hi again,

 In articles found and read just days ago, I have learned that:

a) Contrary to my previously held erroneous notion, the DL-103R has the same 16.5 micron spherical stylus as the   DL-103 (and 13 out of 15 listed original DL-103 versions from Denon. Only the DL-103D and DL-103M had elliptical styli)

b) The reviewer in "HiFi&Musik" (Sweden) thinks the DL-103R is hardly worth the added cost compared to the DL-103. (makes one wonder, how many people actually make provisions for differing generator impedance (cable capaciatance, load impedance??) when comparing the two?)

c) Mr. Koizumi (of Onken fame) says he would rather buy twenty DL-103s, pick a favorite and throw away the rest, than to buy "some expensive super cartridge that happens to be this week's favorite". laugh

 This fellow Philip Holmes clearly does not believe in any sort of advantage to be had with spherical styli, and rather tries to argue that groove pinch effects are more of a problem with sphericals. And about proponents of spherical styli...."Their logic is so odd, that I don’t want to risk spreading this peculiar form of audiophile wishful thinking..." I have seen no odd logic, just no-nonsense techno-logics, so to speak... Well, we don't exactly have to have an argument either way. If the issue is harmonic distortion, someone ought to just measure it and settle the matter once and for all. Most of us will hear distortion if we have reason to believe it's there, just like so many hear (speaking of wishful thinking) the superiority of this or that ultra-expensive cable after having read the hype and ecstatic reviews, and more importantly, perhaps, after having paid a big sum of money for that fancy cable (never ever used, or deemed necessary or worthwhile in a recording studio ever, of course...)

 Aaah, it all just reminds me why I stopped reading the "audiophile" magazines years ago - too much of the expensive toys for guys with too much money to spend, an industry and its consumers walking in circles year after year...same s**t new wrapping over and over... Why it's so much more fun to play with hotrodded Lencos, DIY arms and "peacemakers" like the DL-103. I like to believe in "classic" designs and concepts which prove their worth over time and don't disappear in favor of the "new and improved" months later.

 In any case, it is easy to believe in the sound you hear and I myself have yet to break in my new 103... Talk about listening rooms, heh...I've spent hours and hours the past couple of days rearranging my room which, admittedly houses "the lab" with its countless unfinished projects at various levels of completion, parts, tools, books, musical instruments and other playthings and which is extremely far from being "feng shui" or even very ideal acoustically I'm afraid. But still, my system sounds great in there - to my ears... I may be an audio technology nerd and a music lover, but "audiophile"? Think not...

 Thomas
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« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2009, 12:44:20 AM »


 Aaah, it all just reminds me why I stopped reading the "audiophile" magazines years ago - too much of the expensive toys for guys with too much money to spend, an industry and its consumers walking in circles year after year...same s**t new wrapping over and over..

Right on brother!   I get the same feeling a lot of the time when I read reviews, and rely more on user comments from groups like ours here in Heaven  smiley

Ed
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« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2009, 12:58:35 AM »

Aaah, it all just reminds me why I stopped reading the "audiophile" magazines years ago - too much of the expensive toys for guys with too much money to spend, an industry and its consumers walking in circles year after year...same s**t new wrapping over and over... Why it's so much more fun to play with hotrodded Lencos, DIY arms and "peacemakers" like the DL-103. I like to believe in "classic" designs and concepts which prove their worth over time and don't disappear in favor of the "new and improved" months later.


I hear you!  But then, I use a turntable that was introduced fifty-six years ago, and a cartridge whose direct forbear is now 34 years old.

And I have not enriched the bank accounts of the marketers of ten-dollar cables from China which then are sold for hundreds or even thousands of dollars.

What bugs me is the magazine that publishes an extensive list of components it has recommended, and then says "We don't recommend the Blitzkrieg Eight Mark II any more, not heard recently to be sure of its rating" even as other, competing products in the same price and performance echelon continue to be recommended.  Does this mean the quality control of the Blitzkrieg Eight Mark II is so awful that one year's production might sound different from the next?  Or does it mean that the "reviewers" ears or brains or standards are so changeable that one year's judgment might be different from the next?



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Gene
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« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2009, 01:09:59 AM »

Sadly that is not just in Hi Fi Gene but everything that we consume in life from food to cameras in this modern era sad
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David cool

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« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2009, 01:50:35 AM »

i just posted the philip holmes comments just as another opinion.  i also have not read any hi-fi mags for over a decade.  i only trust my own ears and those of diy'ers  wink.

i like the refinement of the 103r, that's why i bought another one the other day.  the 103 is very, very good, but the 103r is preferred.  it gives the recordings a bit of brilliance that the 103 lacks.

i would be interested in how the paratrace is shaped.  david, have you scoped it yet?

i have one brand new 103 that i am going to sell soon  :.
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wesley

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analogfuture
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« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2009, 09:29:51 PM »

Hello again!

 Forgot to thank you for the link to Holmes' article...? Think I skimmed through it a little while back but without paying the closest attention to some of his remarks. And after all, he did state his opinion that the DL-103 is the best buy in audio ever. Opinions are always fine, but there was this questionable accusation leveled at anyone who might have reason to believe in the possible superiority of spherical styli, which is what our DL-103s mostly have, and as it turns out, for specific and well-founded reasons. I will return to the subject shortly.
 
 I can see that I'm among peers who share some of my views on the absurdity of the "high end" market/press/consumer habits/beliefs etc. But enough of that for now, as far as I'm concerned...

Now...

 I have to apologise for having refered to, much too simplistically, an article about cutting, cartridges and styli from a magazine that hardly any of you have read. I had to pull it out of my files for a quick reread just now, and, also personally having met the author, Reto Luigi Andreoli in Zürich nine years ago while visiting with Christian Rintelen, I continue to be both impressed, inspired and amused by this man's writings. Reto went to Australia to stay with the Garrotts and learn about cartridge making at their factory a good many years ago.

 The particular article I have made reference to was printed in Hi-Fi Scene #17 (November 1998)
"The Final Luigi - Back with a Vengeance" (..."Expect no Mercy")  grin    The whole magazine was based in Zürich and carried articles written in German. German phono-tech-terminology is not very easy to translate smoothly into English, and in addition there are drawings and figures very useful to understanding the technological reasoning. Being a technologically minded "propellerhead" audio nerd myself, I think this would be of interest to some. Perhaps it should have been posted in the cartridges section, but this is just an evening's humble efforts. I will now try to summarize some interesting points...

 Different cutter heads with different cutter stylus modulation geometry and with differently shaped/cut cutter styli have always existed, and these all more or less differ from the geometry of playback cartridges' cantilever suspensions and styli. The shape of the cutter stylus gives rise to the modulated grooves having varying wall angles and width, causing the well known "pinch distortion", where the playback stylus is forced up/down due to aforementioned amplitude/frequency-dependent variations in groove width and wall angles.

 Curvature overload, which happens if the playback stylus radius is too great as compared to the groove curvature, was studied by the large record companies (like EMI, Nippon Columbia, RCA, Decca)
back when spherical styli were universally used. Special analog compensation circuitry was applied in the recording process to minimize such distortion on playback, ie. many records were produced which would have the lowest distortion in this regard when played back using spherical styli. Some of these processes were known under trade marks such as "Royal Sound", "Dynagroove" etc., but mostly no mention was made of these compensation techniques on album covers.
 Modern "flatter" styli playing these records would conversely result in increased distortion, "undoing" the purpose of the tracing simulation/compensation.
   
 When the reproducer stylus follows the groove and has a different shape than the cutter head stylus it makes contact with the two respective groove walls at points which are slightly ahead or behind the points on the groove walls cut by the cutter stylus at a given instant. This gives rise to a form of phase error which is absent in mono recordings (where both groove walls contain complementary signals).

 Next, Luigi's headline "Der grosse Denkfehler" (The big Error in Thinking) which is where we get to the main point. To quote:

"That the stereo groove undoubtedly could be traced with less distortion with a narrower stylus than with a spherical stylus is true. But only if the suspension of the cantilever is the same as that of the cutter stylus. And this is never the case!
 And here begins the tragedy of the industry, which has been grinding away on the spherical stylus since the first stereo records came about, hoping to improve the reproduction. The actual problem, namely the geometrical design of the cantilever suspension, was wholly ignored - except by Decca, EMI Varilux, Neumann and Ikeda. That this thoughtlessness, or the ignorance of the complexity of the matter has led to design errors, even has increased playback error, is a fact."...
 


 Going into this more closely, it is seen that with a conventional cantilever suspension (we all know how it works), the stylus, on simultaneously moving vertically and horizontally, defines a domed surface (section of a sphere), which mostly defeats the purpose of flatter stylus cuts - which would be fine if they traced the groove as it was cut by the cutterhead stylus. In this situation, a spherical stylus has the same (shape) contact surface with the groove walls independently of the angle of the cantilever (given by groove modulation) vs. the groove, whereas a flatter cut stylus does not behave "as assumed" - at larger vertical deflection angles, for instance" the contact "line" (more or less) is not a vertical line perpendicular to the record surface, but is at an angle and so may fail to correctly trace very small modulations which would still be reproduced by a spherical cut stylus, and additionally could cause groove damage for the same reason.
 Further problems/details are discussed, including resonances and intermodulation distortion resulting from this geometrical inconsistency.

 Next, the consequences of VTA and (radial) arm adjustments are discussed. Obviously, following the previous reasoning, a spherically cut stylus appears having a constant width as it appears in the groove irrespective of tracking angle, no difference from that observed in the zero points (in the case of a radial arm). Now if a narrow/line cut stylus is substituted, the stylus is relatively narrower at all points on the record than it is at the two zero points, because only here it is tangential to the groove.
"We now observe the path of the stylus which it traverses, seen from the front. The spherical stylus moves from the outside inwards in a plane. With ANY other stylus cut it moves up and down, with the highest points at the two zero points, and the lowest conversely corresponding to the greatest angle errors...It now follows that, except with cartridges having spherical styli, it is completely impossible to adjust the VTA correctly, even if the record is completely warp-free!!! Perplexed?"

 I personally think that, especially when the matter is treated with all the thoroughness it deserves (and more than my summary can convey), it may be logically deduced, on the basis of geometrical conditions existing in the real world of record engraving and playback, that the departure from spherical styli introduced more problems than it solved, and that neither lower distortion nor better HF response could be expected. I don't carry the kind of phono-technological baggage that RLA does, but I do follow his impeccable reasoning.

 Towards the end of the article, the development of the DL-103 by Takeo Shiga is summarized, and it was based on a fascinating discovery by Shiga which was published in Journal of the Acoustical Society of Japan, january 1962. I had long forgotten about this most important point, and I don't know where the JASJ article might be available in English, but will attempt a translation of Luigi's brief description of Shiga's discovery:

"Shiga had established, that by a given design (ie. precisely defined moving mass of the generator system and a spherical stylus in conjunction with the elasticity of vinyl at room temperature) the playback distortion could be compensated for by the plastic deformation of the vinyl and the temporary change of the groove geometry" 

 Some clever trickery there, it appears, specifically requiring a spherical stylus among other things. Some guy named John Walton, a cartridge development engineer at Decca picked up Shigas study in 1966 and confirmed:

"...So it turned out, that equipping even the best cartridges with elliptical styli effected no reduction in distortion whatsoever, rather, an increase..." Walton had studied much the same problems as Shiga and arrived at precisely the same conclusions independently of Shiga, whose Japanese research paper remained unknown in the West between 1962 and until 1966 when it was first presented in English.

 Make of all this what you will, folks - but this article is what turned me on to the DL-103 in the first place, and if anything, there is no "odd logic" to be found anywhere in it. It is a 16 page largely very technical article, humorously but knowledgeably written by a guy who builds cartridges and most everything else audio as well, and in fact - in my experience, Reto is one of the most knowledgeable audio people I have ever met, right up there with uh...Hiraga - only not as humble and polite, and vastly more opinionated...

 Thomas


 
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« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2009, 12:21:30 AM »

For those who read German the article can be downloaded here: http://www.rintelen.ch/konzept_und_text/download.php?file2download=Artikel_RLA.pdf
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« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2009, 12:41:17 AM »

Interesting reading - thank you Thomas!  smiley

Taking the theoretical discussion into account it makes me wonder why I don't enjoy listening to a conical stylus-equipped DL103R more, esp. after having lived for several years with a shibata retipped 103R and stock 103R and being able to switch between them over extended periods of listening.

The shibata stylus is extremely sensitive to proper alignment and I can hear the effects of mistracking as the arm swings through the null points. I do believe that a fine line stylus can (and will) cause greater distortion in some cases than a conical. But in my experience it's only in some cases...

In truth a conical stylus sounds muffled to me now, like some of the music in the groove is missing.  sad  It's not just the highs - there are subtle percussive cues and micro-details that add so much to the performance with the shibata. I can hear fingering techniques on the violin and other stringed instruments that take my breath away. Never heard them with the conical stylus on the 103 or 103R.

So...I have a broken cantilever on my backup 103R that I'm seriously thinking of retipping with a paratrace stylus ala' David - I like the extra detail and resolution of the shibata and I'm curious about the paratrace. Is this foolish on my part? I don't consider myself an audiophile in the pejorative sense but I do like more musical information rather than less. To hear the amazing brush work on the drums by Joe Morello or the subtle bass work by Jaco Pastorius is worth the extra effort to align the shibata'ed DL103R correctly and to put up with any added distortion in other circumstances.

Do you think I've made an agreement with the devil in exchange for added musical complexity and detail?

Pete
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« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2009, 12:43:18 AM »

Thomas,

thank you for the time and writing such a long post. The insight is invaluable ! 

Pete - the Paratrace has provided me such refinement in sound which I never heard in the last 20 years regardless of the number of cartridges I have been through and I have heard many. The paratrace gives not only the emotions created through microdynamics but the details which you are looking for. What is interesting is that you can hear the effects of mistracking through the null points - may be time for linear tracking  wink tongue however my paratrace SPU still sings beautifullyon my Audicraft with no real mistracking I can hear, I guess the SPU is not as revealing as the Denon 103R with my Midas body  : I would certainly recommend this modification to anyone particulalry the paratrace stylus, but the ruby cantilever is open for another discussion I guess. Since we have very similar systems, I can only recommend Midas Denon with paratrace and ruby cantilever - and everything in life just becomes wonderful again. I have being going through my record collection and re-enjoying music like never before  grin
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David cool

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wesley
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« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2009, 01:41:24 AM »

 grin  thomas, thanks for the insight and long post  azn.

i'm not that technical, however it doesn't hurt to read and learn, thank you wink.

i'm already sold on the 103 or 103r regardless of what shape the stylus is.  the world is round, so i can agree on spherical  angel.

my 103r is stock, but tweaked with a ebony shim on top (which i need in order to raise the wand a bit).  there is also a pc. of ebony in the front for tuning, that's it.  this cartridge creates a seamless presentation of music with unbelievable dimension.  i have no negative comments, i just enjoy the music.

here is some insight from another aspect of getting more out of the 103.

http://home.comcast.net/~omaille/audio/DL103/DL-103.html

if i need a stylus change in the future, it won't hurt to try a paratrace.  i still have not heard anyone telling us about the actual shape of a paratrace.  if it sounds good, i don't care about the shape.  i'll be too busy grinning, licking my lips and enjoying the music  cheesy.
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wesley

Dial out the room and you'll enjoy your music more.
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