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Author Topic: Tone arm cables, what should I choose?  (Read 7165 times)
Velvetsunrise
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« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2014, 08:28:47 PM »

Jesus!!!!!!!!!!!!!,,,,,why bother, beam me up Scotty! F++K
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old woody
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« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2014, 08:30:10 PM »

Quote
Maybe my problem is that I am not anal enough to be a real audiophile. Proof of this is my inability to find this mysterious thing called PRaT. Is there a button somewhere on my Lenco that I need to push?


Aye.......Prat=pinch-faced ham wrangler in my book
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"I found myself more and more thinking about the time when my hifi was small but the time I spent listening to music was huge "
Velvetsunrise
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« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2014, 08:59:21 PM »

Not sure what it has to do with the topic but.....................

Proof of this is my inability to find this mysterious thing called PRaT. Is there a button somewhere on my Lenco that I need to push? tongue

Maybe your Idler wheel needs cleaning sleepy
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Chopsaw
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« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2014, 09:08:50 PM »

I wouldn't bother worrying about capacitance over such a short length. Just use some decent wire and get on with it.  There's a cover under the arm so that will give some shielding and if you ground it all I don't think you'll have any problems. I like to twist each pair but not severely so, certainly not as tight as that over rated Cardas stuff. Vic's wire is plenty good enough for me too.
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Si.
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« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2014, 09:30:41 PM »

Starting with Woody:
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and btw i love your fictitious names " farthing wigglethrop " what a great name now wouldn't it be funny if he was real

I goofed. It should have been "Lord Farthing Wigglethorp." You know, it's like those endorsements for those Soundsmith strain gauge cartridges seem to come from doctors... People outta my financial league.

About how to do this, the path that I laid out is actually pretty simple. What you do is to add tiny capacitors inside the headshell of any cartridge that needs a higher capacitance load than your lowest one. Once you set it up, you leave the rest of the wiring alone.

Without the test meter, we're working in the dark.

I can't talk about your Pickering 371 because I haven't checked the specs, but if we're talking about the models in my book, you wouldn't have to do anything special for any one of them if you'd set up your wiring for that basic 275 picofarads because all of those cartridges would set up exactly the same way: they all call for the same capacitance load. But if you put one of those Shures that I mentioned into a headshell for the same arm, you'd add 125 picos capacitance across each pair of pins in the headshell. And then, you'd be giving the Shure what it needs.

By the way, I bought a Thorens turntable from someone who had replaced the wire with stuff like you described, and I can't imagine that it could possibly do anything other than hum obnoxiously. However, in the chance that I could be wrong, I will keep an open mind and do my duty, like Lord Wigglethorp, for the good of The Empire. I will listen to this damn thing before hurling it into the audio trash box. About that humming audiophile wire, all I can say is that "it goes to eleven."

Reese, I am not suggesting any changes in the preamp. Your arm wiring presents an unknown capacitance load. That's not unusual. So, you get your hands on a good capacitance meter that's capable of measuring low picofarads. You then measure the capacitance of your arm's wiring. Now, you know what that load is. The figures are cumulative. Thus, the load that the cartridge sees are as follows:
- headshell capacitance +
- arm wire capacitance +
- turntable-to-preamp capacitance+
- preamp input capacitance
____________________________
= total capacitance load seen by the cartridge.

To both of you good people, I want to remind you that the capacitance seen by the cartridge has a definite effect upon the high frequency response of the pickup. You will come across documentation of this if you read enough cartridge test reports. In some of them, I've seen the output curves under different loads. The whole range, beginning around maybe 2,000 Hz and upward has a slope that's shifted by changing this load, and this range includes the cartridge's resonant peak. Typically, the designer wants to achieve the best compromise in this range, which is to preserve the best flatness of the highs but, yet, avoid having the resonance protrude so much that it's obnoxious.

In Woody's case, since he constantly tries out cartridges, the logical place to make adjustments is by adding little capacitors to the cartridge pins right inside the headshells, leaving the rest of the cabling alone. This will be the most practical solution, the easiest to live with. In the case that you described (if I'm understanding you correctly, Reese), your leads don't offer enough load to any cartridge that I can think of, so I'd want to put the capacitors at the most logical place, which would be at the interface between the arm leads and the leads to the preamp. Since the cabling that you described doesn't provide enough load for any cartridge that I know of, add a reasonable amount to a central location like this, and just adjust for any particular cartridge (maybe like I recommended to Woody) and forget about it. But, of course, your arm wiring is going to add to it, so in fact, you may have enough already. You can also put them into two little intermediate plugs right at the preamp input jacks, but that would be awkward.

Using a capacitance meter would provide answers (all except the preamp itself).
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Richard Steinfeld
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Chopsaw
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« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2014, 10:13:47 PM »

And why can't you add capacitance at t'other end if you need it? Some phono stages, EAR comes to mind, offer capacitive loading for MMs.
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Si.
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« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2014, 12:47:03 AM »

I wouldn't bother worrying about capacitance over such a short length. Just use some decent wire and get on with it.  There's a cover under the arm so that will give some shielding and if you ground it all I don't think you'll have any problems. I like to twist each pair but not severely so, certainly not as tight as that over rated Cardas stuff. Vic's wire is plenty good enough for me too.

I totally agree with your post. The capacitance may possibly be a concern when you look at the total length from the cartridge to the pre amp and if you are using MMs. As I am not using MMs I don't think that there is a problem at all in my case. As you say the cover under the arm should also provide the shielding needed for that arm.
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Stefan
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« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2014, 01:07:30 AM »

There's a bit of a difference between ideal and compromise and I think for most domestic turntable users practicality has to be the priority.

Matching the turntable arm cabling with a known cartridge makes sense but is only practical where the cartridge model is a constant, as in a broadcasting situation. Your average domestic music listener, being a human being will probably want to chop and change cartridges (I certainly do) and I think rewiring the turntable arm for each cartridge change is really a bit silly, certainly not practical. Rewiring an arm is a fiddly procedure and not something I enjoy doing very much.

I suppose we could make up an in/out box with a range of capacitors and multi switches for matching but as mentioned earlier I'm not personally that anal to think the effort of constant matching will reap any significant listening rewards. I think the expression that comes to mind here is 'splitting hairs'. Turntable arms, even those expensive ones, come supplied with cable and advice for mounting a whole range of cartridges, I think that is significant.

I rewired my Mayware arm recently with cheapo Ebay glitz cable, it was fiddly as hell but I must admit I definitely noticed a very definite improvement. My online audio correspondent living in Wiltshire, Lord Farthing Wigglethorp, praised my endeavour but when I sought an opinion from my Brooklyn chum, Hiram J RackenBacker III, he criticised my rather cavalier attitude and opined I would never reach audio nirvana with my current attitude.

C'est La Vie mes petite chums, I think at my age, I'm possibly not capable of noticing such finite differences in the audio spectrum but tell a difference I certainly can and all things considered - so far, so good
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richard
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« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2014, 04:40:27 AM »

Maybe I haven't been clear enough, so I'll try again.

Aside from its capacitance, I don't care about the length of the lead between the turntable and the preamp, except for hum and radio signal interference. After all, these leads can be seen as resonant antennas. And people have been plagued by unwanted radio reception through them.

As I've repeated earlier, the capacitance load does affect your cartridge's response, especially in the highs. This can be dramatic. No matter how short your cables are, the effects of incorrect capacitance can be quite strong.

My recommendations are aimed at sensibility and practicality. We're in agreement. But note that I have written exactly the opposite of urging the rewiring of your arm for each cartridge. In fact, I clearly recommended a method of doing the opposite: optimizing the wiring for the most difficult case and making this your standard.

If you're using multiple cartridges in their own headshells, I've provided a nice, practical method of optimizing for each of them by putting little caps in each shell for any cartridge that needs a higher load than your standard. Simple. Easy. Sensible.
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Richard Steinfeld
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« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2014, 05:18:39 AM »

Hi Stefan,
 
I hope the following will put things into perspective for you.
When I found one of the wires in my Versa Dynamics arm was squashed between the headshell and the mounting block and had become intermittent, I sought advice from the original designer John Bicht who said, "It's easy. Just go out and find the wires of the highest purity...6N or 7N or something, to replace them." 

I understand that even during the relatively short life span of the VD Model One, there was at least one tonearm cable "upgrade". I maybe wrong but I think the original was from van den Hul and it was later switched to Cardas for whatever reason I don't know. But ln any case the VC upgrade package was offered to users directly.  Unfortunately, many users found after installing the new wires, hum developed.  According to VD, it was eventually traced down to the insufficient stripping of the Litz wires. Since each filament of the stranded Litz wire is insulated, one must make sure each one is stripped clean of its insulation completely before soldering, otherwise, resistence increases and hum develops.  VD required the resistence between headshell pin and exit RCA connector of each wire to be below .6ohms in order to avoid possible hum.

I replaced mine with Cardas shielded 33ga tonearm cables using the guideline and it worked like a charm - no hum, no nothing but music, but better than the original? I couldn't really be sure!
 
Later, I started to measure quite a few other tonearms, mostly vintage, and found their wire resistence to be unbelievably high, and yet incredibly, no hum issues and even more incredibly they didn't sound bad either. So after a few replacement for replacement's sake, I finally decided to cease and desist and let all my vintage stuff well enough alone unless there were issues but...many of them did have issues. cry evil
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Andy
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Chopsaw
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« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2014, 11:06:47 AM »

Two excellent posts there.
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Si.
floppybootstomp
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« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2014, 02:18:41 PM »

In fact, I clearly recommended a method of doing the opposite: optimizing the wiring for the most difficult case and making this your standard.

If you're using multiple cartridges in their own headshells, I've provided a nice, practical method of optimizing for each of them by putting little caps in each shell for any cartridge that needs a higher load than your standard. Simple. Easy. Sensible.


You did that, I appear not to have fully taken it in.

I know what you're saying makes sense but I do wonder just how fussy we are to be when optimising our systems? I have been intending to buy a capacitance meter for some time now, this looks like a good enough reason to invest in one.

I have three GL75's with these combinations:

Decca Unipivot arm/Denon DL110 high output MC
Mayware Mk IV arm with Ortofon Blue 2M MM
Linn Basik Arm, removable headshell, used with:
a) Denon DL103 MC
b) Nagaoka MP110 MM
c) Shure M55E MM
d) Shure SC35C MM
e) Shure M78S MM

I rewired my Mayware arm with Litz cable (not 'Glitz' as I mentioned previously) only because the old cable was faulty (intermittent) and the difference was noticeable in terms of sound quality. To strip the ends of the cable I carefully used one of These which, being only mildly abrasive, done a very fine job.

I hear what you're saying, I will purchase a capacitance meter, make cartridge to phono stage measurements then try and gain recommended individual cartridge figures. And then, if practical and possible, add small capacitors per headshell as per your suggestion. I thank you for your advice.

If my previous reply seemed a little flippant, that's because it was wink

I still do wonder at how deep we have to go but nothing to lose and nothing ventured, nothing gained.
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My real name is Tony
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« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2014, 03:36:02 PM »

Tony, i can recommend the Voltcraft VC920 multimeter. Not only does it do a brilliant job for the usual measurements (autorange), but it will measure down to a few pF on capacitance.
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Werner (wer - just my initials, not a nick!)
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floppybootstomp
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« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2014, 06:56:31 PM »

Tony, i can recommend the Voltcraft VC920 multimeter. Not only does it do a brilliant job for the usual measurements (autorange), but it will measure down to a few pF on capacitance.

Thanks for the pointer, I'll take a look at that. £84 inc VAT at Rapid atm.

I was going to buy an Ebay £28 cheapie but the Voltcraft could live in my toolbox, currently have a Fluke 73III in there which I've been using since '97, but it only measures volts, resistance & current. And at home a very old AVO 8.
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My real name is Tony
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« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2014, 07:14:23 PM »

Hi Stefan,
 
I hope the following will put things into perspective for you.


Yes it does Andy. I think it is a question about getting a satisfactory cable and if you want compare different items in your set up this is not the place where to do it. It is just to tedious.

Tony wrote the following:"I know what you're saying makes sense but I do wonder just how fussy we are to be when optimising our systems?"

I applaud this question and totally agree. The purpose of all this is to play music and not use our systems as objects for measurement. How often have you not heard old equipment sounding fantastic well knowing that back when those were produce they did not have access to the refined component that we have today. At some occasions I have updated such items with modern components and yes the sound improved and in particular it became much more detailed. However rarely have there been any magical or drastic improvement of the musical presentation. So lets not get overwhelmed and lose perspective.

As to capacitive loading of cartridges I am very sceptical. The cartridge is normally an inductance(L) and paring this with a capacitor C will give a reasonably average flat frequency response if you get it right. However this is not the only thing that happens. The LC paring is a filter and will give rise to a phase shift over a lot of the frequency range that we are listening to. This will lead to some smearing in the midrange and upwards. To me that is something I have difficulties living with. It is of course a personal preference and if you are not bothered by this smearing and see the flat frequency response as something essential in your listening than go ahead. I did not want to introduce this aspect but I think that there is a case for caution about this practice of adding a capacitor. It might not be for you. Don't necessarily trust the manufacturers recommendations. Listen for yourself and see what compromise you prefer.
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Stefan
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