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Author Topic: Another motor controller  (Read 8673 times)
Andr039
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« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2015, 09:35:38 PM »

Thanks Sebastian
Now i watched the video  smiley
Hope you will keep us informed about your project!

best,
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Andrey

в моем углу засохший хлеб и тараканы
Rotsch
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« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2015, 09:48:25 PM »

Hi Sebastian
And a big "thumbsup" to your project !!

Have you tested it at a connected TT, right now ??
I just ask ...cause i'm curious about any interferences ??

"Störfelder"  wink

Good luck and "Daumen rauf & Respekt"  cool
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Roger  icon_albino

"To play a wrong note is insignificant. To play without passion is inexcusable." -Ludwig Van Beethoven
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« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2015, 09:03:27 AM »

Hi Sebastian
one thing I was wondering .. yours and Phoenix use a single 'trigger' on the platter to be able to correct for drift (feed back loop?). Now with a single sample on the platter pre revolution..you do not get into trouble wrt inter spacing of samples .. but on other hand:

IF the 'idler business' is about power/control 'umpf' .. I thought the aspect of micro variations in platter speed due to varying groove modulation (assuming record can be firmly clamped to platter) would be interesting in correcting for = sub revolution speed changes

SO if making a feed back loop control system.. would it not be worth the effort using more samples pr revolution (maybe like a strobe 'belt' design around edge).. or is the lag time in control system (motor/idler response time) too long for this to work? (in which case I wonder why the idler drive then should have an impact over for instance a high inertia belt drive setup)

AND on a completely other note .. when going digital wave forming.. I would feel tempted to allow for wave shape manipulation (it does mater on sync /quad controllers .. do not know in these high power async set ups though). Ultimate would be recording of specific motor response and 'play back'

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/Patrick
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« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2015, 08:32:49 PM »

Hi Roger,

yes, there are some disturbances on long wave (Langwelle) radio (noticed with my Telefunken Concerto 2500 tube receiver). It might disturb other equipment as well. I do not have the equipment to run EMC testing, but I guess it would fail to be certified. This is another reason, which makes it extremely difficult to sell assembled units.

Also, as noted in the "disclaimer" of the manual, the 31 kHz switching frequency might be present in the audio signal (at a VERY low level). It is very unlikely, but may damage speakers if amplified to a high volume.

These are just observations and they should have no impact on the operation of the unit.

Hi Patrick,

the MagicQuartz (and I guess the Phoenix as well) was designed to deal with rather slow speed drifts. These happen mainly due to: (1) decreasing friction when the pickup moves to the center of the record, (2) warming-up of the turntable's mechanics/bearings and (3) dust collecting at the needle ( cheesy ), which also reduces the speed. These effects can be quite significant. Yes, it is highly debatable if these can even be heard, but they can easily be measured. I plan to come up with some figures that will prove these effects (if you believe my measurements, of course). I have created a PC interface that allows for logging these speed drifts.

I have yet to experience measurable speed changes due to the groove modulations. I also did some experiments with a 100% DIY turntable made with a 3D printer (see my homepage) that uses a stepper motor ( cheesy ) WITHOUT a platter to turn the record. There, you want to keep the torque as low as possible in order to allow for a low-noise drive. (This works quite well, but admittedly, its performance is very poor when compared to a "real" turntable.) But with this configuration, you can indeed hear the speed decreasing at the beginning of high signal bursts. Quite funny.

So I believe that the heavy platters of our Lencos and Duals well compensate speed variations that might be caused by groove modulations.

I believe it is possible to create a strobe disk that is slightly larger in diameter than a record. If placed under the record, it could be used to create a high-resolution timing signal. So, in theory, it would be possible to do that.  And regarding the software, it would be just a matter to make the signals per rotation configurable. The software should be fast enough to do the measurements. Maybe I will experiment with this in the future. But honestly, I do not expect a real benefit from it.

Regarding noise shaping: I did some experiments with this as well, but it's very difficult to be implemented (especially the timing in the firmware). And you would need some circuity on the high-voltage side, which makes the whole construction much more complicated (and dangerous for DIYers).

From my experiences this is not necessary. The amplifier is capable of delivering enough current so that the quality of the sine does not decrease under load. Yes, there is a decrease of the generated voltage under load, but MagicQuartz is capable of compensating this. You have to manually configure the voltages for the motor being turned off and on, and motor calibration wizard in MagicQuartz helps you to do that. However, a future upgrade might do this 100% automatically (with a small PCB that measures the voltage on the high side and communicates the values to the main "low voltage" PCB). The initial version will also have some additional ports for future hardware upgrades, but I can not promise anything at this point of time.

Regarding the "recording idea": Yes, the firmware could "record" statistics about the overall speed changes and reuse them. For example, it could assume that the turntable is "cold" after MagicQuartz has been switched on, and assume that the needle has been moved to the beginning of the record after the motor has been switched off and on again. When using more powerful hardware, MagicQuartz could even detect which record is played back (by also recording the audio signal) and use this information. This would, however be a very advanced thing and the overall performance gain would be minimal. However, MagicQuartz is clever enough to remember the last calibration value. It resumes to this when it is started again (and yes, it can be "removed" manually if you want the true 50 or 60 Hz back).

Furthermore, MagicQuartz will automatically resume into the last mode of operation after being turned on (e.g. live quartz mode). This means that you do not have to spend additional time with MagicQuartz just to get your records playing correctly. Many aspects had been considered to make MagicQuartz as unintrusive as possible.

Cheers, Sebastian
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 08:38:35 PM by CyberSeb » Logged
SteffenD
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« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2015, 09:44:08 PM »

Hi Seb,

welcome to Heaven. Nice people here, you'll see.

Think you need to get a Lenco asap for testing, unless you have one already?
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cheers

stefffen
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« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2015, 11:40:34 PM »

Sebastian-

I've read the on-line manual and am very impressed by what you are doing.  Can you explain a little more detail about how you are getting 1/10,000 Hz resolution with PWM?  My (limited) understanding of PWM is the output waveform has to be updated 256 times per cycle for the 8 bit resolution you are getting (or is it 256 times per half cycle)?  What is the timer rate that is required for 100µHz resolution at 256x (or 512x) the sample rate?
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-Leon
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« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2015, 05:31:43 PM »

Hi Steffen,

thanks for your nice welcome! Yeah, I think I'll have to throw out some of my 20 Duals in order to understand what's so special about Lencos ...  smiley

Hi Leon,

as also explained in the "Theory of Operation" chapter, the generated sine wave is 9 bit. It creates two 8 bit half cycles, which are together 9 bit (not 16 bit). They are combined to create a full cycle sine wave. For a full cycle 128 steps with discrete values are used.

This has nothing to do with the temporal resolution, yet. The timing (and therefore the generated frequency) is determined by the speed at which the software steps through these 128 values. This progression is done by using the microcontroller's internal timers to not induce jitter that would be caused by the main routines of the software. (The PWM generated signal is also generated in the background by an internal PWM timer.) However, the precision of the timers is limited by the prescalers and the microcontroller's crystal clock, and it is not possible to create arbitrary speeds at a 1/10.000 Hz resolution. E.g., 50.0000 and 50.0001 Hz produces exactly the same signal, and you would have to go up to e.g. 50.0100 Hz to get different signal. Therefore, everything between 50.0000 and 50.0100 Hz can not be generated.

However, MagicQuartz uses some clever programming that breaks this rule. This is what I call "GCD Time Interleaving Algorithm" in the manual. Of course, this is buzzword advertising and it should be very obvious for a good programmer to guess what I'm doing. However, I do not want to go into the details, because I believe this truely differentiates MagicQuartz from other similar units.

The free Arduino version does not use this crazy algorithm because it would break compatibility with the serial communication with the PC. The behaviour, which I described above, can therefore be observed (e.g. no signal difference between 50.0000 and 50.0099 Hz). In practice, this is not truely relevant as even the Arduino version performs pretty well. But it's not as good as the "real" version.

Cheers, Sebastian

« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 05:44:08 PM by CyberSeb » Logged
ZigZag
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« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2015, 05:52:08 PM »

Sebastian-

Thanks for the explanation.  I guess I'm not a good programmer, because it's still not obvious how you are able to get 1/10000Hz resolution.  Forgive me for asking a few more dumb questions:

So the sampling rate then is 128x?

Just to clarify, is the frequency resolution using your algorithm still 0.0001 Hz?

If so, does this produce any jitter in the output signal?

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-Leon
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« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2015, 06:10:00 PM »

Hi Leon,

OK, maybe I have found something worth patenting.  evil

The sampling rate of the sine wave is actually 6400 Hz at 50 Hz, because the software steps through the 128 discrete values 50 times per second: 128 * 50Hz = 6400 Hz. Accordingly, for 60 Hz the sampling rate is 7680 Hz. The formula holds for any frequency.

The frequency resolution is 0.0001 Hz, and it does NOT produce jitter in the output signal. smiling

Sebastian
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 06:30:14 PM by CyberSeb » Logged
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« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2015, 08:34:41 PM »

Hi guys,

I have updated my homepage with the instructions for the free "high quality sine wave" Arduino version and the optical sensor connection:

http://mate-labs.de/arduino-breadboard-version/

I know it is still lacking a schematic/picture, but it is really easy to build. I will draw a schematic in the upcoming days.

Please feel free to experiment with this Arduino firmware to generate nice and stable sine waves! You should also be able to use this MagicQuartz Arduino circuit in combination with the other amplifier designs discussed here on Lenco Heaven. You only need to add some R/C low pass filtering (two caps and two resistors) to transform the digital PWM (on Arduino pins D3 and D11) into an anolog signal.  grin

Cheers, Sebastian
« Last Edit: October 28, 2015, 09:10:10 PM by CyberSeb » Logged
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« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2015, 03:27:22 PM »

Hi Seb,
When the MagicQuartz becomes available for purchase will it be a complete kit? In other words all one has to do is assemble the thing, no other parts are needed to be acquired.
And do you have any idea of pricing for delivery to Canada?
Thanks!
Peter
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Peter
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« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2015, 04:01:56 PM »

Hi Peter,

I will probably not sell whole kits but only the programmed microcontroller, PCB and the 3D-printed case parts. The other parts are standard components that should be available everywhere.

In the beginning this makes it easier for me, because I do not have keep a stock of rather expensive components (i.e. the transformers). Remember, this is a hobby project for me. But I will provide part lists, which can be imported into the shopping websites of major component distributors.

And it will make the whole thing cheaper to build!

Maybe I will sell whole kits later, depending on the total request and international availability of all components ... I will definitely try to find a solution that makes building this thing as simple as possible!

Since the parts are lightweight, I think the delivery will be cheap. smiling

Sebastian
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 04:09:19 PM by CyberSeb » Logged
Bonzo
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« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2015, 04:14:17 PM »

Hi guys,

I have updated my homepage with the instructions for the free "high quality sine wave" Arduino version and the optical sensor connection:

I know it is still lacking a schematic/picture, but it is really easy to build. I will draw a schematic in the upcoming days.



Ciao Sebastian,
I'm looking forward to see the complete schematic, with the optical sensor (no electronic attitude for me
It seems an easy solution, even if you need a pc to make it work (too bad a display and some buttons cannot be used!).

Do you think we can share the ground of the 24v psu with the ground of the Lenco?
I know Lenco come with a 2 poles power cord, I mean the "hearted" Lenco as per this post:
http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=71.0

Ciao, and thank you for your efforts!!
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CyberSeb
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« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2015, 04:27:56 PM »

Hi Bonzo,

well, it's Sunday, I'm alone and have some time now. Maybe I will will be able to create the schematic this afternoon! smiling

Of course the main reason why there is no LCD/button support in the Arduino version is because I want to to buy the full version. evil And because it makes building the thing much more difficult - almost more difficult compared to the full version. I wanted to keep the Arduino version as simple as possible.

BUT: It is also possible to run the Arduino version without a computer, once everything is set up. It should even automatically resume into "live quartz mode". But I can't actually promise that this will be working, because I have done no testing. For example, if the UART buffer (for the serial communication with the PC) is filling up, this might cause some trouble. But I'm not sure. But you will need a computer to switch between the speeds (16/33/45/78) ...

Sebastian
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« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2015, 05:43:39 PM »

Hi Peter,

I will probably not sell whole kits but only the programmed microcontroller, PCB and the 3D-printed case parts. The other parts are standard components that should be available everywhere.

In the beginning this makes it easier for me, because I do not have keep a stock of rather expensive components (i.e. the transformers). Remember, this is a hobby project for me. But I will provide part lists, which can be imported into the shopping websites of major component distributors.

And it will make the whole thing cheaper to build!

Maybe I will sell whole kits later, depending on the total request and international availability of all components ... I will definitely try to find a solution that makes building this thing as simple as possible!

Since the parts are lightweight, I think the delivery will be cheap. smiling

Sebastian
Thanks Seb,
That's cool, this is a very interesting project. Let us know when you start shipping.
Peter
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Peter
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