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Author Topic: Tube amp for 800ohm Philips 9710  (Read 2580 times)
RR1957
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« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2023, 04:03:47 PM »

What?

I made four suggestions?

You objecting to all that?

Anwesh

Only for 3 and 4...
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Kind regards, René.

Machines more sensitive than the ears they play to
analogadikt
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« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2023, 05:47:10 AM »


Absolutely not for 3 and 4!
I feel sad you write that and you must have no experience with OTL components?
Vintage audio, which can sound pretty good as I experience every day.

My experience with A LOT OF fifties and sixties vintage audio systems is that the OTL
versions sounds a bit better, more bright so to say and a tough bass  without distortion.
F.e. the AG9018 on which both systems are possible.
The experience of all people who have this amp is that the OTL version gives more
satisfaction to listen to.

It is also possible to find two AG9007 mono power amps. and use those as mono blocks.
These amps were high end in their days and now hardly to find but nothing is impossible.
They were actually build for professional purpose in mono systems with very good
three-system speakers: a very large bass cabinet and two high tone satellites. All with
9710A or B speakers.
BTW this amp is OTL Circlotron.
http://www.grammofoon.com/HiQGN/Fotos/players38.htm





The set here is of course the mono set. But the AG9007 is also a good mono block.
Phillips Phonogram themself used them in the sixties in their listening studios. They even started a new small
production for that purpose.

The speaker set was available in 800 and 1200 ohm.
The AG9007 'eats' both and even TWO of these speaker sets.


I used this complete set for several years about ten years ago.
This was my set:
http://www.grammofoon.com/HiQGN/Fotos/players35.htm
Actually, my AG9007 was of the 1963 production. So, for professional purposes.
A whole set did cost about 3000 Dutch Guilders in the late fifties.
John Average did earn about 200-250 Guilders a month... talkin' about high-end in mono.





About suggestion # 3
I discussed with my friend who has repaired several otl radios and I have heard them as otl ,with old Philips transformers and new transformers made by my friend . OTL sounds a bit better than old Philips trafos but my friends trafos in the same system have the best SQ. Nowadays am listening to his built amp with his trafos driving AD5200 speakers. The amp on bench testing easily crosses 60k in FR without any feedback.

I own and have refurbished dozens of valve amps . American , British , German  and off course ,Indian . You probably have no experience with them.  wink Most of these , have better opts than Philips . The American ones are like the engines of their muscle cars of that era. And please note that my suggestion of impedance matching transformers is for connecting the op's American amp to the 80Ohms drivers . These are external devices that go between the amp and speakers. No internal modifications are required and more important, they shall prevent the historical devices from turning into historical junk.

About my ignorance:-
I am also a Philips fan but not a blind fan. Philips came to India in1958 and soon established several factories making everything from light bulbs to components and complete gear. India was most likely their largest manufacturing base outside Holland. The components were also sent to their European devisions for use in their production, off course for obvious reasons , this was never advertised  laugh

Philips made 8" and 12" FR drivers in India. The 8" were a somewhat cheaper variation of the 9710 to suit the Indian market and are still famous here as the Hi-Q  driver. Boston continued their production after purchasing the Philips business. They retained most of the 9710 characteristics including the (in)famous shout. When Philips sold the complete system here , it included a 7" platter manual record player with a ceramic cart and a small built in amp. One 8"  driver per side in sealed enclosures as the speaker system. Even this was a big luxurious item in those days. That system had a built in zobel network in the pre amp to tame the speaker shout , so while the speakers sounded very good with the Philips player , they were too bright with many other amps.

Because of my infatuation with these drivers , I developed a small batch of custom drivers with more powerful magnets and  modified cones. These were installed in TL cabs the system was demoed in Lencoheaven meets in Belgium. I spent about €4000 on that project.

Just for study and to acquire first hand knowledge I have purchased a lot of gear and now require 200 sq mtr enclosed space to store all that. I do own a few pieces of Philips Holland equipment, including a pair of the rare MFB active speakers.

About suggestion #4
What is wrong with replacing 800 Ohms 9710 with 8Ohms versions? 8 Ohms shall match correctly with the OP's amp that has 8 Ohms output taps.

In fact, I wrote the short edition of this suggestion as I thought the long one shall upset you,  but as you are upset despite that I share the long version here ,

Long version of suggestion #4
Sell these and get the 8 Ohms versions or better still , get the AD5200 or the AD 3600 . These 12" and 10" drivers are far better sounding than the 9710 , especially when paired with an amp other than Philips. There is a recent discussion about them here.
https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=43480.0

Off course, I expect that Rene shall be upset at my suggestion and say that 9710 were and are more popular. This is because they were  cheaper (and not better) than the bigger drivers so they had more buyers then and are more easily available today. Phillips introduced the large size drivers first and then came up with the 8" 9710 when they wanted to increase the sales.

Concluding remarks
I have said whatever I want to so I am signing off from this topic and won't be replying.

Regards

Anwesh

« Last Edit: November 20, 2023, 05:53:52 AM by analogadikt » Logged

RR1957
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« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2023, 11:08:05 AM »

I rate my favorite vintage audio components in a historical concept and never compare them to more modern audio. I think that is unfair. For me it's all about getting the best out of my favorite vintage audio and enjoying it, nothing more than that. It can always be better, but then I also have to distance myself from the historical concept of my favorite audio and I'm not going to do that. So I can only give advice on what I prefer and no more than that. I also consciously only have a very limited collection, everything of which is used and enjoyed every day. I have virtually nothing extra to prove that I am an expert in a particular field. So my knowledge is limited to one particular area in vintage audio. I also limited myself only to mono, I know my borders, even in my record collection. Just for fun. In the tru historic concept.
I only can advise and help the topic starter in this historic concept of which his speakers are related to.
I wil not overdo with long replies to convince somebody else, just advise what is possible in the historic concept with what did exist in that time (in Holland) with illustrations.

And I am not a blind fan of this historic audio of Philips. I know my limits.
Maybe I am just small to discuss in this matter and should have not done this.
Small in my audio knowledge and small in my record collection. Life is tough.

Have fun.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2023, 01:27:46 PM by RR1957 » Logged

Kind regards, René.

Machines more sensitive than the ears they play to
JacquesD
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« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2023, 10:09:38 PM »

Well, I must say that I follow René in his view and his enthusiasm that these 800 ohm drivers deserve to be operated with the amplifiers they were intended for. I had the chance to listen several times to a well-built bass reflex cabinet with a 9710/800 ohm unit, driven by a circlotron OTL amplifier. The absence of an OT has beneficial effects in the area of frequency range  and distortion while a circlotron has a rather captivating sound quality. If I could lay my hands on one of these drivers I’d build (or find) a suitable amp for it.
Maybe Mr. Spinner is not going into that road ?

Cheers,
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Jacques

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« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2024, 12:44:40 PM »

Hello everyone

First off my apologies for haven´t replied after mi OP, my daughter was born, 3 weeks early, so everything shifted way faster than expected and checking audio emails and fiddling around with audio gear was back-burned, until now

Thanks in particular to Anwesh @analogadikt for his input and then reaching out to me and opening this thread again.

So now down to business. I had already decided to go with one of the options suggested here about getting a matching transformer, even before reading the post.

I had a pair made to match the 8ohm Eico and the 800ohm Philips, an almost 2 kilo per piece beefy transformer, and it worked! Nothing exploded and the result was just pure natural sound. The cabinet I made was a copy of the Silbatone type for the Altec 755, since I don't have much room for large cabinets as original Philips plans suggests.

The result is surprisingly good! The sound this old-timers produce is extremely natural, balanced, no range steps on the other, and also is very ver dynamic I guess because of their efficiency.

I'm attaching some pictures of the transformers, cabinet and mounting process, and also a couple of videos.

The record it's an US 1956 mono first repress of Julie London's Julie is Her Name, so try not to mind about the ocasional clicks, its an almost 70 years old record

Regards
Fer

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/HzaxmqMFrcc















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RR1957
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« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2024, 02:57:01 PM »

 icon_thumright
Have a lot of music fun.
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Kind regards, René.

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analogadikt
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« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2024, 04:57:45 PM »

Glad it worked for you.

Agree with Rene , time to enjoy the music now smiley

Regards,

Anwesh
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hatehifi
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« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2024, 04:42:28 PM »

Hi Fer

Nice job! I like your Sony PS2250. Which OL arm is that, the Encounter? Is that Multiplex as a plinth?

Sounds very mellow  cool

Cheers!
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John
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« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2024, 09:29:28 PM »

Hi John
Thanks!! I really like the Sony, actually I like most vintage Sony gear. The plinth is guatambu ply , same as the cabinets

The tone arm is OL Silver Mk3, an outstanding performer. Before this one I’ve had only vintage tone arms (SME3012, Denon 303 & 302, Yamaha) but this one really sets the bar way higher, more information and clarity.

Cheers
Fer




Hi Fer

Nice job! I like your Sony PS2250. Which OL arm is that, the Encounter? Is that Multiplex as a plinth?

Sounds very mellow  cool

Cheers!

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hatehifi
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« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2024, 09:52:05 AM »

Off Topic…

Hi Fer

Fwiw, I found three Gryphon Black Spikes (metacrylic cones), to be the best footers to my liking. Clearaudio copied them and imho their sonic result was noticeably poorer. If the Gryphon don't come in question, maybe Russ Andrews’ ( https://www.russandrews.com/eu/ ), oak cones might do well. I tried numerous cones from aluminum to bronze, galss etc., but came across RA after selling my Sonys (4?). Lastly, string or rubber suspended feet weren’t to my liking either. Next to the Black Spikes was two Sorbothane Raake Speaker Pucks and one small brass tiptoe.

Excuse my ramblings but I ‘love’ its sound… angel

Cheers!

« Last Edit: April 14, 2024, 11:07:56 AM by hatehifi » Logged

John
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"I've did my time in that rodeo. It's been so long and I've got nothing to show. Well I'm so plain loco,  fool that I am I'd do it all over again."
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« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2024, 07:28:18 PM »

I need to make a cabinet for my Philips ad9710 800 ohm speaker. Would I have to respect the measurements of the original Philips cabinet or could I use another less complicated design? thank you
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spinner_barista
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« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2024, 07:35:26 PM »

I need to make a cabinet for my Philips ad9710 800 ohm speaker. Would I have to respect the measurements of the original Philips cabinet or could I use another less complicated design? thank you

I guess that’s up to your liking, room available and risk profile haha

I don’t have the room for such large cabinets so I had to take the risk of going smaller. Of course bass will be the most affected but depending of the type of music you like it will not be a big compromise. The 9710 are natural and clear sounding
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ubaldojhp
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« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2024, 09:36:33 PM »

Thanks spinner, I guess I'll try to make something similar to the original although I don't know if triangular or rectangular. It would be approximately 170 liters.
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« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2025, 05:56:01 AM »

Hello everyone! I am writing from Lithuania. I am asking for help with questions regarding Philips OTL series amplifiers and speakers. If someone can find time to help me, I will be very grateful. Thanx!
Vitali
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RR1957
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« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2025, 07:51:52 AM »

Hello everyone! I am writing from Lithuania. I am asking for help with questions regarding Philips OTL series amplifiers and speakers. If someone can find time to help me, I will be very grateful. Thanx!
Vitali

Hello.
Fun you are interested in this rather rare subject.
I had this a lot at home. Started in 1998 and stopped with it November last year.
Just ask here what you want to know and look to my site HiQGN which is in Dutch, sorry for that.
Also in LH I wrote something about this subject, even 13 years ago.
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Kind regards, René.

Machines more sensitive than the ears they play to
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