Perceived differences in digital media?

[willbewill]

The topic Ethernet cable extension upgrade - https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=45084 - got me thinking about Perceived differences in digital media I've noticed over the years:

1. If I copied a commercial CD to a Audio CD-R(W) it pretty much always sounded different played back on a CD player - to my ears better

2. If I ripped a commercial CD to a FLAC file on a Voretex box (LMS based) it again sounded different - definitely better to my ears

I, in my naivety, put it down to the possibility of less error correction occurring - but is that the case? or is there another explanation, other than I'm deluded?

And I'm not trolling but genuinely interested in possibilities positive or negative.

[low pitch]

A friend set me up Volumio on a Surface Pro tablet with Windows uninstalled, and it still surprises me how it  sounds better than CD or JRiver on PC playing to the same DAC.   I use TD1541 ladder DAC or Chord Mojo.

So much so that I have been wondering if I should rip some CDs and upload to it.  I would much rather play with record and tape playback but it does sound so good!  Uploading music files to Volumio from PC via network is a complete pain.

martin

[Fergus]

I always found that a CD accurately ripped to flac files sounded better and always thought that it might be down to the error correction having been sorted out in the process putting less demands on the streamers resources.

[floppybootstomp]

I don't really know but I've often wondered why CD's burnt from vinyl >> WAV >> CD-R usually sound 99% as good as the original vinyl when played back on the same system using a Marantz CD player (about 6 years old, cost about £400).

(PS: I've been in hospital 12 days, this sent from daughter's android tablet).

[damiena]

Hope you are ok Tony. Get well soon.

[stratokaster83]

There are many factors Malcolm.

First of all, when a CD player reads audio from a compact disc, it really does not do it in a bit-perfect way. I’m typing this on a phone so not inclined to go into details, but you might find this article of interest: https://headphonecommute.com/2023/03/27/the-crucial-flaw-with-audio-cds/ Basically, because audio CD players are reading compact discs at 1x speed and because they need to keep a constant stream of data to the DAC, they make one try which might or might not be correct, and rely on data correction to keep things listenable.

Ripping the same audio CD to your PC, on the other hand, can (and most often will) create a bit-perfect copy of the PCM data on the disc. Recording this data to a high quality CD-R could then create a copy which produces less read errors and sounds better than the original CD, especially if the CD in question is old/scratched etc. But obviously reading a file from the hard drive is going to produce a bit perfect result every time, which would explain your preference for the Vortex box compared to the CD player. 

Then again there is a question of the DAC and the interface between the DAC and the transport, etc.

[willbewill]

Thanks Pavel

That pretty much confirms my suspicions and gives a good reason why I have never really got on with CDs as well as vinyl. Looks like I'll need to stick with the Voretexbox (although now running Daphile) as I don't like streaming old music as so much of it is remastered nowadays and I like to listen to the originals (I seem to have a good memory for music and any differences bother me) - better to rip the original CD and play back from hard disk 

[pde2000]

commercially produced cd, and cd-rom are pressed using a stamper (preferably glass) into a blank, alot like vinyl.  The molded disc is then coated in vaporised aluminium which is then protected with a laquer.  A computer can rip this information and apply error correction that allows a perfect copy to be produced.  When my son lent a cd-rom to a friend it came back scratched to muggery, but it still worked in the computer.  A disc like this would not even play on a cd player.  Just the smearing dirt of finger prints can stop a cd playing correctly, let alone scratches.

The business of information technology would not entertain the dandy delicacy of the audio world, and works within budget constraints that no self respecting audiophile would be limited to.

Saying that the vested interests of the great monopolies mean that perfectly functional machines are guarenteed to stop working within 10 years as they get loaded with updates and operating system patches that slow the processors down to a crawl.  That's built in obsolescence and it's a con.

[stratokaster83]

I got rid of my entire CD collection a long time ago, but not before ripping it all, obviously.

If I remember correctly, I used cdparanoia to do the actual ripping because if the disc is at all readable, it is practically guaranteed to produce a perfect rip.

The business of information technology would not entertain the dandy delicacy of the audio world, and works within budget constraints that no self respecting audiophile would be limited to.

That's what happens when you have real engineers solving real-world problems with real-world budgets. It's one thing to spend an extra dollar per device when you're making 1000 expensive audio CD players a month; it's an entirely different thing when you're churning out thousands of cheap and cheerful PC drives a day, and these drives have to be reliable.

Saying that the vested interests of the great monopolies mean that perfectly functional machines are guarenteed to stop working within 10 years as they get loaded with updates and operating system patches that slow the processors down to a crawl.  That's built in obsolescence and it's a con.

As much as I like to blame software engineers for being lazy, relying on bloated software stacks and not optimizing their creations properly, things like real time encryption (which is practically a hard requirement for any internet-connected device these days) really are too much for old hardware. There was a long period of time (between 2012 and 2018) when CPUs were getting only marginally faster, but now we finally have real progress again. I recently got a new computer, and it compiles large projects literally 12 times faster than my old computer which is from 2018, which is more or less in line with speed gains in the early 2000s.

[analogadikt]

Basically, because audio CD players are reading compact discs at 1x speed and because they need to keep a constant stream of data to the DAC, they make one try which might or might not be correct, and rely on data correction to keep things listenable.

Is this the reason why some people like vintage CD players that have the slower DAC chips like the TDA1541 ? The slower chips leading to less read errors 

Regards,

Anwesh

[hatehifi]

Is this the reason why some people like vintage CD players that have the slower DAC chips like the TDA1541 ? The slower chips leading to less read errors  

Regards,

Anwesh

Makes sense. I spent quite some time yesterday listening through  Vlad‘s TDA1541A DAC to my some 14,000 .flac files. Very enjoyable but I still jump mid-track whereas I much more seldom do this when listening to vinyl.
 

Cheers!

[low pitch]

Still using my Kinergetics KCD-20 I got in 1987.  Phillips transport with TDA 1541 "hysteresis cancelling" DAC.  I tapped into the chip outputs for a valve stage output, but left the original outputs in.   

I had a nice Sony 337ESD with dual TDA1541 DAC but hte transport electronics died, so I converted it to Amanero usb input, 20 Ohm R output to valve stage.

What astonishes me is how much better digital files stored and played on Volumio / windowless PC sound than on JRiver / windows laptop with same DAC.  It's not all about DACs.   The singer steps out of hte mix and sounds human is a way to describe it.  Something's going on, I'm not that airyfairy when it comes to audio.

I compared same track on Qobuz 44.1kHz with a volumio stored file,  and Qobuz is OK but not a patch on Volumio. Same DAC.  So where does the magic leak out?

Thank you to the engineers here for taking  trouble to explain...

martin

[hatehifi]

Volumio? Where to find it?

New thread, maybe?

Cheers!

[stratokaster83]

Still using my Kinergetics KCD-20 I got in 1987.  Phillips transport with TDA 1541 "hysteresis cancelling" DAC.  I tapped into the chip outputs for a valve stage output, but left the original outputs in.  

I had a nice Sony 337ESD with dual TDA1541 DAC but hte transport electronics died, so I converted it to Amanero usb input, 20 Ohm R output to valve stage.

What astonishes me is how much better digital files stored and played on Volumio / windowless PC sound than on JRiver / windows laptop with same DAC.  It's not all about DACs.   The singer steps out of hte mix and sounds human is a way to describe it.  Something's going on, I'm not that airyfairy when it comes to audio.

I compared same track on Qobuz 44.1kHz with a volumio stored file,  and Qobuz is OK but not a patch on Volumio. Same DAC.  So where does the magic leak out?

Thank you to the engineers here for taking  trouble to explain...

martin

Martin, do you have exclusive access enabled in Windows and JRiver? If not, please try to enable it and report your findings. https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Exclusive_Access

It's an open secret that the system audio mixer in Windows is terrible for audio quality. Enabling the exclusive mode allows the audio player to bypass it.

[willbewill]

Volumio? Where to find it?

New thread, maybe?

Cheers!

Take a look at Daphile as well - I prefer it to Volumio